Understanding Infant Sleep: Dispelling Myths and Embracing Responsiveness with Louise Herbert of Mother Nourish Nurture

In this episode of the Livin'Sky podcast, I got the honor of interviewing Louise Herbert of Mother Nourish Nurture, who is a renowned Pediatric Sleep and Development Specialist and Lactation Specialist. 

This conversation was extra special to me, because it was Louise who helped me understand Nate's sleep needs from an attachment forward perspective and ultimately saved me from a total burnout and breakdown. She also helped thousands of families do the same. Therefore I couldn't think of a better person to interview on this delicate topic of infant sleep. 

We delved into the complexities of infant sleep, debunking common myths and misconceptions that many new parents face.

Key Points Discussed:

The Reality of Infant Sleep

• Common Misconceptions: Many parents are misled by idealized sleep schedules found online, which can lead to unnecessary guilt and stress.
• Biological Needs: Infants have different sleep needs compared to adults. Frequent waking is normal and essential for their development and safety.

The Problem with Sleep Training

• Not a One-Size-Fits-All Solution: Sleep training is often presented as the ultimate fix, but it doesn't work for every family and can sometimes lead to more distress.
• Long-Term Effects: We discussed the potential risks and consequences of sleep training and the importance of informed decision-making.

Attachment and Co-Sleeping

• Attachment First Approach: Louise emphasized the benefits of an attachment-forward method, which supports both the child's and the parent's well-being.
• Co-Regulation: Holding and being close to the baby helps in co-regulating their bodily systems, which is crucial for their growth and development.

Societal Expectations and Pressures

• Cultural Influences: The unrealistic expectations set by society and social media can add to the stress of new parents.
• Historical Context: We explored how past generations were conditioned to view infant independence and how this has shaped current parenting norms.

Practical Advice and Support

• Realistic Expectations: Louise provided insights into what parents can realistically expect regarding their infant's sleep patterns.
• Accredited Support: We discussed the importance of seeking advice from accredited professionals and the need for regulation in the baby sleep industry.

Louise's Accredited Course

• Comprehensive Training: Louise is pioneering an accredited course for sleep consultants that covers a wide range of topics, including sleep science, attachment theory, and infant mental health.
• Global Standards: The course aims to set a new standard in the industry, ensuring that practitioners are well-equipped to support families holistically.

This episode is a must-listen for any parent struggling with their child's sleep. Louise's insights and compassionate approach offer a refreshing perspective that prioritizes the well-being of both the child and the parent.

Louise's Instagram
Louise's Website
Lena's Instagram

[00:01:34] Sleep expectations vs. reality.

[00:03:41] Sleep training and its impact.

[00:09:07] Sleep anxiety.

[00:12:33] Expectations of infant sleep.

[00:17:28] The power of oxytocin.

[00:18:44] Dependency and independence in children.

[00:23:38] Sleep milestones for children.

[00:28:03] Children's sleep misconceptions.

[00:31:28] Behaviorism in parenting advice.

[00:35:09] Unregulated baby sleep industry.

[00:39:03] Infant mental health awareness.

[00:43:02] Accreditation for Sleep Consu

Transcript

Lena:
Yay. Hi, Louise. Let's give this another try. We tried recording this on a different platform, and we failed miserably. But I'm so excited. We're still going. Welcome to the Live in Skype podcast. Yes, we won't. We have a very important topic to discuss. But I said it before, and I'm going to say it again. I'm so honored to have you here, because you saved my life. You literally did, because I did not sleep for like a year and a half. literally, literally and figuratively, all the things with a with a new baby and, you know, lack of sleep is, is a topic of discussion for so many moms. But what we a lot of us don't know is that there's things you can do to support your child in a very attachment forward way. And we're still there attending to all of their needs. but still being able to sleep while doing that because you're helping them sleep better. So then you can sleep better. So this is what we're going to discuss today, partially, and I'm so happy to have you.

Louise: Oh, I'm so happy to be here. So happy. And as you say, it's such a topic that I think it's in everybody's hearts and minds because it really does affect most families. You know, we go into parenthood and we think to ourselves, you know, sleep like a baby. We are kind of told that babies are supposed to sleep this long, long stretch at night and they're supposed to nap for hours a day and you just pop them down and that's, you know, easy. And then of course we all birth real humans with real human needs and they do not sleep like that. So we're all kind of shocked and taken aback. So yeah, it's really important just to have that kind of, just that, the real information out there. And as you say, you know, just the guidance that's much more biologically rooted.

Lena: Absolutely. Absolutely. Because before I found you, I looked for guidance on, you know, the internet, there are just so many sources. And you find these blog posts with these beautiful schedules that your child is supposed to follow. And they're supposed to sleep and eat and play and then routine and then repeat and repeat, repeat. And if they don't fall into this cycle, you think you're doing something wrong. And this is exactly what I was thinking. I wasn't blaming really my son, but I was blaming myself, like maybe I'm setting him up for failure. because he's not able to follow these cycles. And of course, that's not true. And I know this after my conversation with you, and finally finding the answers to the questions I was looking for. But this happens to so many moms, especially new moms, when they don't really have any experience with babies and sleep. And there's so many things you need to take care of, right? When you're maybe nursing or feeding with a bottle, there's so many responsibilities when you become a mom. So the sleep is typically not something that you study before the baby comes, at least I didn't. So then you're going through these cycles and you don't really know what to do.

Louise: Yeah, for sure, for sure. And then you look for answers and the overarching answers out there are answers that often lead to more distress. They often lead to more problems or feelings are built or overwhelmed or just like, ah, you know, like, as you said, with those schedules, they look beautiful. They make sense to our adult brains. You know, it makes sense to look at those schedules and think, well, of course, but it doesn't make a whole lot of sense to the biology of the infant in front of us. And so it's, there's a bit of a disconnect with regards to expectations. And also just the information that is so widely available out there. And we're talking about, it's not just if you can seek it out, sometimes you'll get emails from completely different companies, you know, companies that have nothing to do with sleep, giving you tips on how to get your baby to sleep. And the tips are always, you know, the top Google search. It's a form of sleep training, which now, you know, it's 2024. Now we know there are other ways we can actually support infant sleep and with much kind of healthier, safer, long-term effects.

Lena: 100% and in a way where you don't feel like you are abandoning your child, which to me, that was the biggest thing. Because there was some advice I heard and I got from well-meaning friends and different moms, which it worked for them and it was a great thing for their family, but I, you know, so many friends were asking me because I was really struggling. So when are you going to sleep train or, you know, you can try this method where you kind of a little bit sleep train and then you still do a little bit of attachment, it was just very well meaning but I was just at my wit's end because I tried sleep training for 10 seconds. And after my son was just just crying for me, I couldn't do it. And I knew from the beginning I would never be able to do that method. And I think if it works for you and your family, it's beautiful. It just didn't work for me. So I'm so happy that, you know, I learn about that attachment first method from you.

Louise: Yeah, for sure. And I think the other thing with particularly with sleep training is It's often pitched to us as the answer. So it's the fix. And some families don't want to do it. And so then the, the kind of the messaging to those families is, well, you're choosing not to fix it by not going down that route. There's this answer on the table for you. You're choosing not to take it. So, you know, it's your fault. You're to blame. And there is a way out here if you want it. And what kind of my perspective is and what I've seen for years and years in this field is it is not the answer that it's sold to be. So when it works, we have to firstly look at what are we defining as it working? What counts as working? And then we have to say, well, at what cost? So what are the potential risks and consequences of it? And then we have to look at the healthy safe alternatives and wonder, I wonder if these families could have been well-served and well-supported with these safe, healthy alternatives. Because many, many, many families more than you would imagine, will go through sleep training only for it to not work. And I'm using inverted commas here because obviously we can define working in a different way, but they say it didn't work. The baby still wakes, for instance, or the baby cries too much and it's too distressing and it just didn't work for us, they say. Or some families will go through sleep training and it will supposedly work for a month, two months, three months, you know, depends, but then baby will get sick or baby will go through a development peak, or maybe they'll take a vacation, or maybe they will move house, or maybe there's some tension in the air at home. You know, just life is happening. And all of a sudden, all of their hard work with their training, it's undone. You know, the baby goes right back to waking again. And what's the answer? The answer that these people are given, these families that are tired and going through stuff, the answer is, well, you have to do it again. So I see families over and over who have literally sleep trained four, five, six times, the same child, over and over and over again, because they are given that as the only answer. So yeah, I think it's high time that this is all changed for the better in terms of let's give people the information that they need to make informed decisions. And if when they have all the information in front of them, they still choose that route. Well, I'm really glad that they're choosing a route with informed, with information behind them. But let's at least give people a fair starting block because when we're just giving people this supposed answer on a silver platter and then shaming them when they're not using it, I just think it's a real disservice to families.

Lena: I couldn't agree more. And there is already so much shame and guilt that a new mother endures. So to add on that sleep component, which is, like you said before, such a such an important part of the family dynamic, right? Because when you're not sleeping and I went through this myself, you know, I woke up essentially fatigued and exhausted for a year and a half. And it was kind of like groundhog day where it was just the same because then you woke up and you have this baby and you know, well, what am I going to do? Because I'm not going to sleep anyways, like there is no way for my son, he would on a good night after some time would maybe sleep for three hours for a three hour stretch. But on his like, roughest night, he woke up like 18 times. So to me, like, I just never I never knew what I was going to get. But I also in the back of my mind, knew I wasn't going to get much, which is so frustrating, because then know, that takes toll not only on your mental and physical health, it also takes toll on your marriage and just relationships in general. So there's so much to consider when it comes to sleep.

Louise: Yeah, absolutely. And also, what you described then, I talk about that in terms of sleep anxiety. So it's the point we get to as parents when Because we know it's not guaranteed. We know when we put our head on the pillow, we are not guaranteed a solid eight hours. It's going to be disrupted. And some nights it might be disrupted once or some nights it might be disrupted five, six plus times. What can happen is a real sense of anxiety there because it's almost like there is a sense of kind of threat, like You know, I can't relax into this sleep. I can't just get comfy and trust that this is going to be my next eight hours because you're kind of on call, you know, you could be, you could be needed at any moment. And I think again, that's a lot of expectation. Um, there's a lot of expectations there because for some families, that's too much. It's too much to deal with, you know, particularly like, let's say you're going to work in the morning or you're going through a huge transition in your family, whatever it is. and you truly, truly need the rest. It's a lot to think, well, I might be working at any moment. And for other families, they say things like, well, I really like it when it's quiet and my baby calls for me and I just get to kind of snuggle in and not have to do anything, just be the baby. So again, you know, it's really so personal in terms of how are we actually experiencing night waking and also how much of that is cultural. So right now in our culture, you know, women, mothers, I'm not sure we've ever had to juggle quite so much. The expectations of life, the practicalities of life, the emotional kind of load of mothering and juggling all the roles that we, that we have in a society that doesn't really understand or support motherhood, overwhelmingly so. Whereas let's dial the clock back a thousand years, you know, and the mothers then are going to be dealing with whole different array of challenges, very, very different to what we deal with today. And the, this sense of mums and babies kind of co-sleeping or feeding through the night or, you know, tending to babies when they call us, that would have been, that would have had to happen for the survival of our species. Like there is no, there's no way around it, that would have happened. So we know that happened. I, there was social supports throughout history in place that support mothers to be able to carry the baby. So it's the whole carry the mother. So we carry the baby. Whereas in our day and age, I just think there is so much lacking in terms of that holistic support for moms and for parents in general. Um, so yeah, it's, it's, as you say, you just add a few sleepless nights into that mix. And you add a bit of anxiety into that mix as well. Am I going to sleep? Is the baby going to wait? And then you add the expectations of society, sprinkle those on top with society telling you, Ooh, your baby's still waking. And, you know, they do that fix. It's like a problem. Actually, maybe if we strip away a few of those layers and we dig in and we can say, are the weights problematic? If they are, is it a health problem or is it a social problem? And we can kind of. once we understand the problem, we can really start to actually support the parent going through it.

Lena: Absolutely. And so what is the expectation of a newborn and infant baby in terms of sleep? What should we expect? Yeah. Lots of waking.

Louise: Yes. I'm the bearer of bad news, but you know, it's funny because it's pitched as this awful terrible thing, but actually It keeps babies well, it keeps them safe, it keeps them active. So when babies rouse throughout the night, they are doing so because they are in a lighter stage of sleep, right? If you were to Google that fact, and if you were to look up blogs or Instagram accounts, I would bet you would find a lot of fear mongering about that. And people will tell you, matter of fact, they will say, your baby isn't getting enough deep sleep. You know, as humans, we need to be having deep sleep. Deep sleep is restorative. Deep sleep allows us to grow, you know, for brains, et cetera. And so there's a lot of fear-mongering and actually the absolute opposite is true in terms of infants. So infants, if they go into too deep of a sleep for too long, they are at risk for SIDS. So we want for infants to fluctuate between deeper and lighter sleep stages. And the lighter sleep stages, They're incredible. They are incredible for brain growth. They are allowing oxygen to flood the brain so that those brains can grow and those synapses can connect, et cetera. And they're also really helpful for allowing the baby to continue to feed. So if the baby goes into too deep of a sleep for too long, where's the calories coming from? We want the baby to queue for feeds so that the calories can be given. Breast or bottle, we need the calories. in for the baby. So when we look at sleep through an infant lens, the expectation is entirely different to our adult lens. So we look at, it's like they're aliens compared to us, beautiful, cutesy little aliens. They have different needs. So if we all of a sudden try to approach infant sleep in the way that we approach adult sleep, what we end up with is risk, true inherent risk. And nobody wants that because the people that are actually advocating for the deeper sleep, ironically, are truly trying to protect the baby, right? Apparently, they think it's good for brains and they think it's good for restoration. But with the science, we know that the active, the lighter sleep is so, so healthy for babies. So in terms of expectations, babies are going to wake, they are going to wake, they're going to want to feed, they're going to want to be close when they are close to us, to that person, regulation happens. So Babies cannot self-regulate. They do not have that ability just yet, but they can absolutely co-regulate. So when I talk about co-regulation, I'm talking in literal terms. So when you hold a baby close, the baby's heartbeat and the mother, for instance, heartbeat, they co-regulate. You hold a baby close, the baby's temperature and the mother's temperature, they co-regulate. You hold a baby close, And when all of those systems, I mean, breathing, breathing co-regulates, the systems that are needed to keep that child well are regulated. And when that happens, wonderful growth can happen because the body is not in a state of alarm, you know, sending all of its energy to just keep everybody safe because the child is truly inherently, deeply, securely safe physiologically. So when that physiological safety is happening, or what, where does the energy go? That's when it goes for growth. It goes for learning. It goes for human connection. It goes for all of this stuff that truly makes us human and makes us bonded and thriving. So, you know, when we hear, Oh, you should put the baby down, you should don't hold the baby too much. No, I understand why people, you know, where that's come from. But we know better now we just know we know we know stuff we know science now that explains well hold on when we hold the baby place, good things are happening too. And that's not to say we have to put the baby 24 hours a day just going to caveat that.

Lena: Yes, absolutely. But it's such a special time too, right? So it's such a shame that that actually gets chained where you're like holding the baby too much or you're spoiling them. It's sad that it's kind of that beautiful time and moment is being taken away in that way. So I'm so happy you're talking about this because we should be holding the babies and it is the, The most beautiful feeling, even now that I'm no longer nursing my son. I used to always get this like wonderful just. this beautiful feeling of oxytocin, right? Come over me. We're just like this hormone of happiness. And now because I'm no longer nursing him, I still get it when I snuggle with him. Like literally when we hug, I feel this feeling come over my body. So I can only imagine what he feels and how that supports his development. and how much a baby will crave this kind of feeling when they're waking at night, right? They wake up, it's dark, they don't have their mom, it's cold, they're calling out for you for a reason.

Louise: For sure, for sure. I mean, it's not a nice to have, it's truly essential, you know, and also the younger the child, the more essential it is because that ability to self-regulate in terms of all of those bodily systems, including hormones, is so dependent, you know, I think we look in our culture, we look at dependency, this idea of dependency as being this inherently terrible thing, because our culture is so fiercely independent. We are applauded for our independence, and not for our community. and for our interdependence. And actually, we are a connected species. We just are. And, you know, babies have not got the memo quite yet that, oh, you've been born in 2024. Sorry, in this particular culture. Sorry, what we found here is completely different to what your biology is telling you to do. So they have not been told yet. They've not been socialized in the way that we have as adults. And so they come out and they're like, yo, where's my person? I just need somebody. I just need you. And I think it's really easy for our society as a whole to kind of say, that's a problem. No, they're going to be, you know, how, how many times we heard it, they're going to be in your bed till they graduate. They're going to be at the blast till they leave college. They're going to be, you know, what is it holding onto the apron strings? Is that what people used to say? All of these phrases that are so ingrained in our culture that tell us separate, you know, you need to teach that child how to be an independent human. And the irony of that is that children become independent through dependency. The more we push for independence, the more they hold on tightly, because the dependency they have is their security, it's keeping them well, it's keeping them thriving. When we lean into that and we allow for it and we kind of allow the space for them to simply exist in the way they need to exist, that's when true independence flourishes and it does so when the child is developmentally ready for it to do so.

Lena: Absolutely and You know, I only have the example of my own son, I only have one son, but I see that with him because I was always there. And I really worked on having a secure attachment with him because I knew about this and I wanted to make sure he felt safe and. Now, when he wakes, you know, I know he kind of he knows I'm coming, even if he needs me. And it's so easy for him to settle. It's so easy for him to go back and, and relax. And I think this is so important. And even though, you know, he still has that attachment with me and still has the need once in a while, he still is thriving on his own, right? He's independent. He can play on his own. He can do all these beautiful things on his own during the day without the need of me anymore because he's getting older. So like you said, just, I feel like having this secure attachment just sets him up for success in the future because he knows if something happens, he has a family to go back to or somebody who's going to support him no matter what's going on.

Louise: Exactly. And that's the heart of attachment. So when we look at attachment in terms of the scientific theory, we want for the attachment figure to be both a, a secure base or a safe haven, but also kind of to allow the child to fly, to flourish, you know, in their own time. I think that's the key because when we push for this stuff and it's, it's too quick or it's a little premature, as I say, You know, children are naturally driven to cling tighter, to hold on tighter because until they're ready, they're not ready. And it's as simple as that. We can, we can kind of manufacture certain elements of independence, but again, it all comes down to at what risk. And sometimes it will be worth it. Sometimes there are consequences in life that we make informed decisions and we follow that route. And it's, it pays off in the end because it's, it works for the family or whatever it is. But often we go through these routes and we're not aware or we're not informed of the potential risk or just of the normal trajectory of human development. You know, if you have a clingy toddler and you're like, oh man, are they going to be clingy forever? And you're actually worried about it. Imagine the relief that would come with just knowing, yeah, this isn't going to be forever. And this is very normal. Also development isn't linear. So often we see peaks in, for instance, cleanliness or, um, difficulties or emotional regulate dysregulation. We see peaks often in alignment with development. And it doesn't say that way it's going to ebb and flow. And I just think it's so easy to kind of get caught up in it when you're in it. So to have just that, um, that support and that outside guidance and that information to be able to say, well, you know, you're doing great. This is the message you're doing wonderfully and it's not going to be this hard forever. It's just not.

Lena: Yeah. Yeah. Um, and I know every child is different, uh, but is there kind of like an age parents can look forward to, um, or some kind of a milestone where they can feel like, okay, well, my child's going to start sleeping better. What are some guidances they can kind of look to if they're really struggling with sleep?

Louise: for sleep. So it's really, it's so child dependent. It's just so, so child dependent. I would say, I mean, one, one thing that gets thrown into the mix a lot with regards to milestones and expectations are night feeds. So that's a really good example here. So often we hear that night feeds are not needed after four months. I see that all the time. I see it all the time, not needed after six months. Um, and actually night feeds are really important for the first year. formula or breast milk, they're really important. That doesn't mean you have to nurse all night or offer bottles all night. You know, you can always set limits, you can reduce feeds, but the concept of having calories overnight for that first year is so crucial. So anybody telling you that your baby should be sleeping through by four months and not having a feed, no. That's a red flag right there. That's an alarm bell. And then once that one-year mark comes in, often we have this expectation of, OK, so technically it's probably safe now to drop the night feeds if we want to. Again, that's if you want to. You do not have to. They're going to be healthy for as long as you offer them. But let's say, OK, let's drop the night feeds. And then let's say the toddler still wakes. And of course, the family thinks, Oh man, like what have I done wrong? Has this all gone wrong? And honestly, no. So night waking is still very common and also a variation of normal well into toddlerhood. If we are to just continually kind of support the child, et cetera, we really do see that. So particularly around 18 months, we see a big peak in wake ups because again, it aligns with a big development leap there. And then it kind of settles a lot usually. And then by two again, there's another peak And by this point, families are thinking, what on earth? But that kind of, that third year of life, so two plus, that's when we see a lot of consolidation in terms of sleep, like a lot. So the first two years, I would say most families will experience night waking to some degree, and it's very normal. You know, if your child, if your two-year-old is waking up every, or your one-and-a-half-year-old is waking up every hour, that's going to be needing a little bit of investigation. Usually, very frequent wake ups are often caused by an underlying situation. But if it's kind of every few hours, and there's a slight rouse or a feed, and it's very easy to get that child back to sleep, that's very normal. And again, you know, very healthy because the child is taking in calories, they're connecting. And I think if we were to kind of go with it and relieve the stress a lot, I think there's a lot can come from that. Of course, some families will say, no, you know, this is too much, I cannot, I just cannot deal with, you know, my child waking once or twice a night when they're almost two, it's too much. And of course, there's so much we can do to support sleep, but in terms of norms, again, strip it all back, let's go a thousand years back, in terms of norms, thousand years ago toddlers would still have woken, probably had a feed and gone back to sleep at night. So because we know that I don't want to demonize that behavior. I don't want that behavior to look like it's needing a fix. I understand the want to fix it. And there are obviously support options there, but I don't want for families to think that it has to be fixed because it's very much a variation of normal.

Lena: Yeah, absolutely. And, know I worked with you and you gave me some wonderful advice in terms of helping my son consolidate his sleep and it made a tremendous difference but I do notice sometimes there will be like a week or two where he's more wakeful or if he's sick clearly I'm sleeping with him anyways because I want to make sure he's okay but he is a lot more wakeful right so the idea of this notion or this notion, this idea that a child should consolidate sleep and once they do, they always will. I just don't understand where this comes from exactly because we wake up as well, right? If we're not feeling well, if something's going on, if we're stressed or something's coming up at work or whatever it is, we might be wakeful as well. So I'm not really sure where this trend started of thinking that a child should once they start consolidating sleep, or at a certain age, they just start should sleep, you know, the whole night, no matter what happens. So it's kind of a shame that this is what the expectation of children right now.

Louise: Yeah, for sure. I think it's just the humanness, you know, it's so easy to take that away from children and kind of thing. Well, we have to we have to mold them, we have to shape them and we have to control them and what they they do, who they are, how they feel. And that's not our role. You know, our role is to support the human in front of us, and that human is going to experience sickness, they're going to experience overstimulation, understimulation, they might have had They might've gotten cold in the night. They might've been thirsty. They might've needed to use the bathroom. They might've needed a cuddle because they had a bad dream. Like there are so many things that can come up at any time of the day or night for anybody. Um, you know, it's like the other day, um, where we live, there was a storm and, um, a tree fell down at the top of our driveway, like near the top of the driveway. Um, and I was woken to blue flashing lights and the sound of chainsaws. Um, and I was thinking, what's this? And it was, um, the emergency services, cause it was falling right across the road, removing the trees, you know, to clear the road and to make it safe for everybody. Now I was woken and that makes perfect sense, right? I woke up because I could hear a chainsaw. That makes sense. If you're a baby and maybe you hear a dog barking down the road and it's nap time, but you woke up because you heard the dog barking, maybe the windows open, you hear it really loudly. It's so easy for us as adults to look at that child and think, why have you woken up? You're only halfway through your nap, you know? And actually we just apply common sense and humanness to infants so we can see, you know, they can wake up if they're cold, hungry, sad, distressed, all these reasons that we also would wake up. And for us, you know, we'd be like, oh, did you have a rough night, you poor thing? Whereas for babies, the expectation is like so high for our little ones.

Lena: I couldn't agree more. And I wonder if the expectation was there prior to social media or is it just kind of this perfect idea of like these babies sleeping and all this advice that you hear online and this is when it really started to become kind of the norm.

Louise: I think social media has sped it up and reached more people and it's become more intense. I think that's the word. Because we have more pressure now. Whereas once upon a time, maybe we'd have gone to mom's group or gone to the park playground, and we'd have spoken to three or four parents. Now we can scroll and we can hear from hundreds of parents, literally. And that's a lot, that's a lot to digest to kind of, cause again, you know, we are an interconnected, we are connecting as a species. So it makes sense that we kind of compare comparison that kind of like, Where do I fit into this? And how does my experience compare to everybody else's? And all that kind of that need to kind of address and understand where we are in the world. If we go way back, we're talking it's behaviorism really at the root of it. So a couple hundred years ago, there were a handful of white men, sadly, they're in white coats and they decided, you know, children should be seen and not heard. And they wrote pamphlets about it, the government issued these pamphlets with advice for parents, um, literally saying you should set your child into their crib and you should not touch them. There was one famous quote that said, do not cuddle or coddle your child. Um, if they've been especially well-behaved, I think it says something like you can give them a firm handshake, like, you know, like absolutely ludicrous, but this was the advice that was coming from. people in positions of authority. And so it very quickly got normalized. And so people were taught how to mother and I, you know, telling someone how to mother, how to parent, that is a risky, slippery slope because all babies are different, all mothers are different, all parents are different, everybody has different needs. And that ability to flex with development peaks and sickness and just, you know, a busy day versus a quiet day and that kind of lovely flow of just being a human and existing with your people was very much conditioned into being controlled. And again, it was given, we were given, this is the standard, this is what we're going for. So we've now had several generations who have been very specifically told children should be seen and not heard and that kind of mantra and again with sleep shouldn't children should be at night that's you shouldn't have your child in your bed with you never you shouldn't go to your child this is your time you know protect your marriage at all costs all this kind of, it's conditioning, it's social conditioning. But yeah, social media has definitely played a role. When I had my first, there was social media, but not so much Instagram, and maybe I'm just slow to Instagram as well. There probably was Instagram, but I was not on it. And I still remember, there was still plenty of pressure, plenty of pressure, but for sure it's worse now, for sure.

Lena: Oh yes, yes, and it's like, you can look for advice from so many sources and there's no way to vet them, right? Because I felt victim to this because you go on Instagram and let's say somebody has 60,000 followers. So then automatically you think like, well, they must know what they're talking about, right? People are listening to them. So maybe they are a great sleep consultant. So I actually met with somebody and she was very well-meaning, but I was really struggling at that point. That was a few months before I met with you. And her advice was just like, yeah, it's normal. It will pass later. Like, it will be okay. And maybe some of these things were normal, but there's different things I could have done to support my son before, you know, at that point when I met with her, because once I really started implementing what the advice he gave me, it made such a big difference. So I just feel like we have to be careful where we get our advice because there might be some well-meaning people, there might be some people out there just having accounts just as a business model versus really coming with the right intention. So yeah, it's a very weird world to live in right now. And you gotta just be careful with what advice you really listen to.

Louise: You're so right. It really is. And also the baby sleep industry, it's not regulated. It's simply not regulated. And that to me is just absolutely wild because we're talking about infants and we're talking about risk and we're talking about health. Um, and so, yeah, I mean, there are, you can literally certify yourself in infant sleep. You can go to your own academy of sleep. make your own certificate and copy it on your wall and go and support clients. And so it's a very tricky one. There is a big push. I'm pushing really hard to get some regulation into the space. It's slow going, as you can imagine. But yeah, it's a really, really hard one because what I'm always really careful about is to not give families more work to do. So families are already, they're going through it. They're raising babies, you know, they're up half the night, maybe they're feeding here or there, they're worried about this, they're worried about that. It's really a lot to add to the workload and to say, you have to vet everybody, you have to do your research, you have to get referrals, you have, well, hold on, that's a lot of work. And so in an ideal world, yes, absolutely. Please, please let those people that you hire. Yes, yes. But it should not be on the family. It should be on a governing body that feels responsible for keeping the public safe. Right. And unfortunately, that regulation is a little way off. It will come. It will come. It's a little way off right now. So yeah, you know, it's really easy to just say, oh, you should look for accreditation, you should look for deep, dig deep, etc. But I'm always very careful because parents are already busy, we're maxed out, you know, so it's, yeah, I'm calling for change at that kind of a higher levels.

Lena: Well, you are a pioneer in this, in this kind of way, because you're creating a course that's fully accredited, right? Talking or teaching this perspective of attachment first and nature versus nurture kind of can't even express myself right now. But can you talk to me a little bit about the course that you are putting together that I'm very lucky to be a part of?

Louise: So yeah, I absolutely love that you are taking the course.

Lena: I can't wait.

Louise: I can't wait. Yeah, I mean, it's I always I've joked for a while now that it's felt like a lifetime in the making, which it really has. I think I've aged about a decade making this thing, but it's hopefully worth it. So, yeah, it's accredited. That's the main kind of the main point in relation to what we were just discussing. So, you know, third-party accreditation, and it offers a ton of continued education points. So it's for professionals that are already in the space, but it's also for people that want to join the space. A lot of people say, how do you do that? How do you do that job? And, you know, there's a lot of options. As I just said, you know, you can go to somebody's academy of make-believe, and I shouldn't say that, but yeah. It's really important to make sure your training is from a provider that you trust, right? Yeah, like with anything. So yeah, so the fact that we can now push a standardized program through, which is giving, equipping practitioners and soon to be practitioners with everything you would need to know. So we're talking sleep anthropology, sleep science, neurological development, perinatal and infant mental health. huge, attachment science, infant feeding, and not just the theory, but then how to actually use that theory to help families, because often there's a big divide here. Sometimes you can find the information, but it's hard to know how to use it for your own personal use, like as a family, but also for, if you are a practitioner, supporting those that obviously come to you that you support. Yeah, just that ability to to make positive change. I know it sounds like some kind of a Hallmark card, but it's just this industry is rife with misinformation. And it's really important that we get accurate information out there. So it's my hope that this practitioner certification is going to be like a ripple effect. So here's the certification. Once you take it, you are fully accredited. You're fully certified. You can go on and you can build your business. You can support your families, et cetera. Um, but by doing so every single client that you support and every single message you put out there is going to rip through. And hopefully make change where, you know, in the future, my, my hope is that families, when they have their babies, they will just, they will know who to turn to for support, who to trust. They'll have better expectations in terms of what to expect of their child. Um, and there'll be less overall pressure on families and on your parents to do all those things we spoke about just earlier. So, you know, you should just put them in the crib and leave them to cry or you should put them down. Don't hold them too much. I would love for that kind of that discourse, just in that social communication and just in conversations, I would love for it to be so normal for a family to go to the playground for another family to say, Oh, look at you holding your baby so tight. That's lovely. You know, instead of it being like, Oh, why are you like holding them? Like put them down. So I just think it would be really nice to normalize, um, normal nurturing, you know, biologically normal nurturing. And I just, I see this, um, certification as a lovely route to do so because the more practitioners we have that are qualified in this way, I mean, the better support for families. Right.

Lena: Oh, absolutely. And we desperately need it. We really do. Because I mean, the little research and the little network that I have, where I've had these conversations regarding sleep, because it was top of mind for me for so long, you know, it just felt so limited. So to have this space, I'm so happy you're creating it. You're just going to help so many people. It's phenomenal. Thank you.

Louise: Thank you for being a part of it.

Lena: Yeah, no. I mean, I remember when you posted on Instagram that it's coming and I literally checked every morning because it just aligned with me so much. I checked for like a week and a half and I was like, did she post it? Did she post it? Is it there? Is it there? And it finally was. I was like, signing up. I was, I was like, I think pretty quick to sign up. I was like, yeah.

Louise: You were definitely one of the first. You were definitely one of the first. Okay, good. i'm so happy and it's such a nice mix as well because obviously you have an amazing background for this so you can really like you can really support communities with this um and the clients that you serve as well but we've got such a lovely mix we've got um midwives we've got dooms we've got nurses um we've got pediatricians we've got stay-at-home moms that you know that like just a passion in their belly to make good change and to to work in a world and a business that just feels good. So yeah, it's just really, really lovely to see this kind of progressing and just to see who's coming through.

Lena: Yes, it's going to really make such a big difference. And I'm really hoping the standards will change like you have said. And so what is the accreditation? If somebody is looking for a sleep consultant or a sleep coach, what is the accreditation they should be looking for? Um, so once I guess out there, really, really hard to find true accreditation.

Louise: You want third party accreditation. So you don't want anybody that's still self-certified. That's a big no, no. Um, you want as formal as you can be. So my program is, um, it's certified by the, the world's leading continued pressure professional development, um, service. they're the same people that would certify university courses or health service courses. So they are looking at the program from that lens of, they are making sure it makes sense. They are making sure it's fair. They're making sure that the assessments are making sense. They're making sure that the information is correct, et cetera, et cetera. When you have a program that is self-developed without that third party input, Um, I would just be really careful that you trust the person. There are some really good ones. Um, there's, there's a couple in the UK, there's one in the UK that's, um, that's fully, um, it's a wider net. It's a wider net. Um, but this in terms of when you're reaching globally, you want something that's going to reach global standards. So for instance, this practitioner certification. It doesn't matter where you are, you can be anywhere in the world. And with those points, those credits that go towards your continued professional development or your continued education, they will work across sectors in different countries. So the problem maybe you don't have a global cert is you're going to end up with a bit of a hurdle. If you're trying to use that for, um, professional development in your specific space. So yeah, global accreditation, a trusted provider. Make sure that the content makes sense in terms of its breadth of offerings. So when we look at sleep, there's a lot of courses out there about sleep that focus on sleep like this. And sleep is one piece of the puzzle, and there's so many other puzzle pieces. There's attachment, as we talked about. There's neurology. There's actual social context. There's infant feeding. there's infant mental health, there's maternal mental health. There is so much that goes into a child's sleep. So if we don't look at all of the puzzle pieces, it's very, very hard to see an accurate picture of what's actually happening for that child. And if we don't know what's happening for that child, how can we support them properly and fairly and safely? So we really wanna look at sleep through that really holistic lens.

Lena: I couldn't agree more. And I think that's in really any, in terms of any work with any provider, right? Because even when you're working with a speech pathologist, such as such as myself or a doctor or anybody else, it's never just about one area. You always want to look at the broad picture and include the family in the picture as well. For sure. It's so important. Yes. So one of the biggest things when I was struggling with my son making so much, one of the biggest well-meaning advice was you should wean. Breastfeeding. It's just, you know, how long have you been, how much longer are you going to go? You know, I was like, you know, like you were just nurse for a year or whatever, like every from every single person. And it was well-meaning because they really thought the reason behind my son waking so much was just him waking up to eat or nurse for comfort or or, you know, because of hunger. So is this true? Is breastfeeding or is nursing really such a big issue in terms of waking? Is it really causing waking?

Louise: Oh, it's really not. So one of the main take homes is that. Breastfeeding weaning from breastfeeding or weaning from any feeds is not a fast track ticket to sleeping through the night. Often what we find is we can remove the feeds, but the baby still wakes. And then you've kind of lost your golden ticket back to sleep. So then you're like, oh man, what am I getting? So I wouldn't go to weaning as a answer to night waking. They're two different things. So I would go to weaning if mum was overstimulated, if mum didn't want to do it anymore, if there was, there's reasons to wean, there's so many reasons to wean, but night waking is not, you know, it's not fixed by night weaning. The thing I will say though is the older the child, they're more likely that there will be a correlation there. It might not be causative per se, but there is a correlation. So for instance, if you have a toddler, an older toddler who is waking at night and seeking milk every single time, anecdotally, there are a lot of toddlers who will wake less once the milk is removed. But if you do that for a baby, those wake ups will still, they'll still remain. It's for most babies, they will still remain. Because when we look at why a child is waking, there are so many reasons. And so breastfeeding is a really good example. So if you have a baby and they wake for a breastfeed, in our logical brains, we think, ah, they must be hungry because they're having milk. I know I'll give them loads of milk at bedtime and they won't be hungry. So they won't wait. I fixed it. And then of course, what happens is you give them loads of milk bedtime and just as normal, two hours later, three hours, whatever. Oh, they're awake and they're wanting milk. What's going on. And the reason is because breastfeeding isn't just delivering milk and calories and filling up tummies. It's also giving that child. Um, co co-regulation connection. immunity, it's giving them warmth, it's giving them skin to skin with mum, it's giving them the main comfort association that they have grown used to and accustomed to with regards to sleep. So when a child wakes, it really makes a lot of sense that a breastfed baby will seek the breast in order to go back to sleep. It doesn't mean that they are ravenously hungry and that by filling them up loads and loads and loads on the day they won't wake, It's simply a case of they are finding so much with that feed alongside the calories. So when we are looking at reducing or removing feeds, for instance, I would always, always, always look not just at the feed in terms of the milk, we have to dig deeper and we have to look at the feed in terms of the comfort and it's the comfort that is the key. If you can provide the comfort without the milk, then you have that lovely easy route back into sleep without having to offer the fee. So I think that's the part, the piece of the puzzle that's so often missing and people say, Oh, just take away the milk and the baby will sleep. Often the baby will not sleep. The baby will still wake and the baby will need some comfort to go back to sleep. So, you know, it's, you can always wean. That's always an option, but it's certainly not a fast track ticket for particularly for younger babies and for babies.

Lena: Absolutely. And I love that we can talk about breastfeeding in this way, because I feel like, for me, at least in my experience, it was just kind of treated like the villain after a while, kind of like once you reach that one year mark, people are like, why are you still nursing? Why are you still breastfeeding? And he's waking at night, so you should wean. And that is just not the case. And I think it's such a intimate decision for the mother and the baby that it should not be pushed in this way.

Louise: Um, and also when it's pushed, you know, weaning is a journey. So breastfeeding entirely is a journey and you can't just decide like, Oh, I'm going to we click. It's not, it's not that simple. Our bodies take a minute, you know, to, to adapt our emotions, our hormones, everything takes a minute, let alone when we add in the child as well, you know, so If we're to consider weaning and we're to throw this idea of weaning at mums who are exhausted already, it's almost like, oh, here's another thing to think about. Here's another thing to have to do. Here's another task. How do we do it? Are there steps? And it's just like overwhelmed. What would be more helpful, I think, for parents would be to hear, oh, good job. What a good job you're doing meeting your child's needs. Let me know if you need any help. Also, you know, if you ever want to make changes, let me know. I can offer support. as opposed to just throwing these kind of one-liners, I was just mean, I was just going out.

Lena: No, not at all. But unfortunately, it is the norm of the advice that we hear. But this is why we're talking about this, and we're going to change the world, right? It's going to be so much better for the babies and for the moms. And another thing I wanted to ask you, because we alluded to you helping me and I'm sure there's so many people out there struggling with sleep. So are there, is there any piece of advice that kind of helps majority of the kids or is it all very, very individual?

Louise: Yes. Yes. It really depends on what we're dealing with here. There's a difference between healthy wake ups and unhealthy wake ups. That's just start there. So if, if your child is waking in a normal way, biologically normal way, and you're thinking, oh man, I really could use a little bit more consolidation. Then we're talking about biologically normal optimization of sleep. So, um, it would be supporting sleep pressure, supporting those sleep drives. It would be really taking a good look at, um, daytime sleep. I think that's a big piece of the puzzle that's often missed because often we're told. that children need like a good two hour solid nap and then an extra nap here and an ex. And often we find children are having so much daytime sleep, they're simply tired enough to sleep through the night, they're just like, they don't have a high enough sleep drive. If, you know, we are sensible about our daytime sleep expectations, um, and we really just tune in, it's all about attunement. If we're tuning into a child in front of us, if that child is clearly not really tired for a nap, go with it. You know, I think we're often so scared of overtiredness. Um, I have a lot to say on overtiredness, but I'm sure that's probably for another day, but we are, we are sold the line that overtiredness is. really problematic. Like it's the worst thing in the world. You have to avoid it at all costs. And actually clinical overtiredness, clinical overtiredness is terrible. We don't see this. If your child is clinically overtired, they'll be in hospital and there will be an underlying major health issue happening. Major. Everyone would be aware of that. And there would be really, really robust, wonderful medical interventions in place. If we're looking at normal overtiredness, We are literally looking at, let's say you and I, we have a busy day, right? We had a really busy day. We got home, we were a bit overstimulated. We had too much caffeine. We watched too many screens and we went to bed late. That's overtiredness. What's gonna happen? We're gonna go to sleep. And in the morning when we wake up, we're gonna feel better, right? Because sleep is restorative. So if your baby is grumpy and grouchy because they skipped a nap, or they didn't nap for as long because that dog barked, or the tree fell down and whatever has happened that's disrupted the kind of the norm of the day and your baby grouchy and, oh, it's been a rough afternoon. And you're thinking they're definitely overtired right now. We like my main message here is it's okay. That child is just fine. And they're going to be just fine after a lovely sleep and everything is going to recalibrate and get back to normal. I think when we get obsessed about this idea of overtiredness and avoiding it at all costs and facilitating naps every which way we turn, it can just sap the joy out of, you know, just our time with our children. It can just sap the joy from your day and it can just exhaust us as parents. Whereas, you know, taking the stress away and thinking, okay, my child is safe. My child is going to be just fine after a sleep. I'm going to be just fine. Like it's all, it's all okay. It really is. I know that's very easy for me to say from afar. And when you're in it, it really does feel like a lot, but I can't help but think that a lot of the worry stems from what we're being told about overtiredness.

Lena: I couldn't agree more. That was probably the biggest fear I had was my son being overtired based on all the advice I have read online, because it was, It was just painted as the worst thing literally that could happen because if they're overtired, then everything's ruined. Right. And it's not supporting their development either. So I'm so happy you spoke to this because I think this is such a big fear for parents and we should really start looking at sleep from a different angle. Sure. Yeah. Well, thank you so much. I know. We have a hard stop coming. There's so many more questions I wanted to ask you. But hopefully, maybe in the future, we can have this conversation again and really expand on infant sleep. But for those parents who really need support, you know, I couldn't recommend anybody more than you. And so where could they find you online? So if they really wanted to work with you, they're able to find you.

Louise: Yeah. So you can find me on Instagram. I'm at mother nourish nurture, or you can come find my website, which is mother nourish, nurture.com.

Lena: Beautiful. Beautiful. Louise. Thank you again for coming on.

Louise: Thank you so much for having me slowly to check. Absolutely.

Lena: Okay. Oh, it's up top. I was like, where is this?